2005-06-19 [Roc]: Why have I chosen to allow abortion to be debated? This is one of the most (if not the number 1) controversial issues out there. I would like to say this: Any personal attacks will be repremanded toward and deleted.

2005-06-20 [Gypsi]: Hm... This could be interesting.

2005-06-20 [Axeman08]: Indeed.

2005-06-20 [Roc]: You may start any time...

2005-06-20 [Gypsi]: Well, I'm Pro-Choice, but only to a certain extent. I don't think it's right for abortion to be used as a form of birth control (like so many people now seem to think it is), but I also think that a woman should be able to make that choice about her body rather than have the government say "No. Abortions are not legal and you do not have that choice." If the woman was raped and became pregnant, I think an abortion would be permissable then, or if a woman was really not trying to have a child and truly did not want one became pregnant, in certain instances I can see where that would be all right too (ie, the child would not be loved, cared for, etc.)

2005-06-21 [Stray Kitty]: Yeah. I think that it is the woman's choice. The government, the male dominated government, has absolutely no right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. This should not even be a politcal issue.

2005-06-21 [Blaze the Nameless]: I have one question though: why punish the baby? Most of the times, woman kill babies because they don't want the responsbility. When it comes to rape, once again, why punish the baby. It wasn't the baby or woman's fault. If she doesn't want the baby then she can just put the baby up for adoption. It's that simple.

2005-06-21 [Stray Kitty]: Killing a baby, huh? At the time of most abortions the fetus is not bigger than this period. And I think that growing up in an unstable homelife is a punishment. Also, think about a teen mom. If you want her to carry that child for 9 month what do you think is going to happen to her grades? She's going to dro out of school when she has the baby or give it to some relatives. And that's if her family supports her, if not then that's two lifes ruined. Hers and her child's.

2005-06-21 [Gypsi]: I agree with [Stray Kitty]. Why should two lives be ruined for the sake of "saving" one? Living in an unstable home that has little to no hope of getting better is hardly being saved.

2005-06-22 [Roc]: I'd like to direct the discussion a bit, if I may. Can we all agree on the simple concensus that we need to limit the amount of abortions requested?

2005-06-22 [Gypsi]: I can agree to that.

2005-06-22 [Roc]: I would use this transition to fascilitate discussion on concensus before controversy.

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: No, i disagree with the both of you. A girl in our own school, a catholic school, was 8 months pregnant when she graduated. G-R-A-D-U-A-T-E-D, she didn't drop out, she still raises her son as a single mother. I think she's in collage, at least taking graduate classes. Lightning didn't strike her when she decided to keep her son and her faith.

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: when does life begin? when brain waves apear? when a heartbeat forms? Conception?

2005-06-23 [Roc]: As a point of clarification, do you disagree with their arguments in favor of legalized abortion? Or do you not agree we need to limit the amount of abortions requested?

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: oh, i disagree with legalized abortion in any form or shape

2005-06-23 [Roc]: Could I encourage you to expound upon why?

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: i believe life begins at conception, the fetus is a human when the sperm enters the egg

2005-06-23 [Roc]: Though most people agree abortion should not be used as birth control, how is preventing fertilization any different than ending fertilization?

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: sex has one purpose, to create children to carry on this race. sex wasn't meant for pure plesure

2005-06-23 [Roc]: That does not answer the question...

2005-06-23 [Roc]: And second, only two species enjoy sex: homo sapiens and dolphins.

2005-06-23 [Blaze the Nameless]: Proven fact?

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: i thougt it did, it meant i was aginst contraception. do dolphins terminate pregnancies?

2005-06-23 [Roc]: Yes, fact. Are you then saying once you have borne children, a couple may not again have sex?

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: no, i'm not, a couple should welcome children

2005-06-23 [Roc]: To "borne children" means to have children.

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: [Morfeaohtarawen] what I don't get is why people are so against abortions existing. I think that is limiting other people. It would be like someone demanding that you have an abortion. While you might think that sex is not for pleasure, millions of other people disagree. And that girl who graduated is not the norm. I'm going to guess that she came from a middle class family, right? Well, in our Health class we had four teen mothers come in. And they were not middle class, they were lower class. They dropped out of school and went into a special school for teens with special needs. Most of them don't graduated college.

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: i do believe that sex is made for the combination of love and reproduction...without one you should not have it, however to make abortions illegal in America....would be rediculous...we are the of the FREE....

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: ok, i'm not an idiot [Roc] i made it to state in word power, i know what that means. Noone answered my question, when does life begin? I don't know what type of family she came from, i graduated eighth grade when she graduated high school. that's sad yes, but why didn't they think a pregnancy couldn't come from sex? People should think first. Most reasons are stupid anyway, i gotta go, my mom is telling me to get to bed , i'll continue next time i'm on.

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [skizheart], the comment, "we are the FREE," is probably going to easily be interpereted differently by everyone. What do you mean, specifically?

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: oooops sorry we're in the land of the free

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: i don't like the idea that we kill the fertilized egg...i believe that killing the baby even right after fertilzation is still murder. It is alive just like a plant and animal are.... i don't understand the fight against it being dead....is it because there's no thought process that it has or sumthing...i've never heard the argument really

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [As I temporarily step down from the mod post]. My mother had 2 stillborns. According to your "life at conception" argument, they should have survived the full 9 months, but they didn't. This brings severe and pressing questions to mind as far as when life truly begins. I say viability.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: its not considered anything other than an extension of the mothers body...or thats what i thought...thats why the mother has the right to kill it, 'supposedly' cause its not seperate from her...however knowing that it will be, and its going to be a baby should give people enough sense to realize irrelevently that its wrong...it's killing a baby human...no matter weather or not its a zygote or a 2month old...

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: what do you mean by viability??--and, well...how can your moms dead kids (excuse me if thats rude...sorry) or well, dead babies even be called that...calling them stillborns simple means the died before birth...but that means they had a life to begin with...i dunno...theres a difference between cutting off your toe and having an abortion...

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: but that doesn't make any sense to whether or not their alive...they need the nutrients from a mother to live.....thet're still living.... just like we have to get food to feed ourselves outside of the womb....is this the only arguement tho?

2005-06-23 [Roc]: Viability is the point of a fetus/baby's ability to live on its own.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: but then that argument can be countered by sayign that the babies get nutrients just the same that the mothers give nutrients to her feet after she eats food...she give the nutrients just the same...well its different throught diffusing of the umbilical cord than it is to pump blood...but its the same thing in that the mother is simpley giving a 'part' of her the nutrients...

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: (thank you...i have never heard that term before)

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: I think that if you are against abortion, then don't have one. It's the woman's choice and if she wants an abortion she deserves the right to a safe lagal abortion.

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: now i understand why they say it's the woman's choice when you say it that way...that it's similar to gettin rid of a body part...so that makes alot more sense thanx lol

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [As I temporarily step down from the mod post]: (To second comment: No problem). Though I can't really refute that argument scientifically, I'm going to try to still refute it. Whether or not a woman is pro-choice, the choice to abort the fetus is never going to be easy. To no woman is a fetus like a dress she can just toss aside; it is a very hard decision to make.

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: yea it is...but why is in no harder to decide to give it up for adoption?

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [As I temporarily step down from the mod post]: Pregnancies are interesting things. Not only do they make a woman act in a fashion they normally wouldn't, but they do something external, as well. A single woman of low income, coming to her minimum wage job pregnant sends a subtle (and very inaccurate) message to others: she doesn't care about herself, for she just got knocked-up, again...or something more politically correct.

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Yeah, as opposed to a woman working a more lucrative job, who might have more support from friends or family, and probably gets maternity leave (paid or unpaid).

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: omg...thats retarded...your pointing out peoples vanity as a reason to kill there kids...they dont want people to think badly about them...and if she is getting knocked up over an over again..well, who's fault is that?? if she didnt want to have to worry about weather or not people thought she was knocked up or whatever goes along with that...then maybe she should just shut her damn legs...

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: yea but if she's strong like that one girl that graduated college then...she obviously gives off that impression...it's all about attitude...especially if she was not raped...if she is using the abortion as a form to get rid of her mistakes!

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: oh wait she graduated high school sorry

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [As I temporarily step down from the mod post]: Vanity is certainly not the term. I'm talking about strangers thinking this way about her. I'm talking 9 months of constant shame and ridicule. And this is all because she either lost control like everyone does OR because she was forced to.

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Whose fault is that? I would say the father is much more to blame for her not being able to "shut her legs." Also, I would not call the pressure exerted on a pregnant woman by society as being vanity.

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: I want to know why males think that they have the right to dictate what a female wants to dowith her body. If I was pregnant and I wanted an abortion I would get one. Even if clinics were illegal I could still get rid of the fetus. There are herbs that I could take that would make me miscarry. Granted it wouldn't be very safe. But outlawing abortion is not going to stop a determined woman.

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: why is it more the guys fault???

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: It's more the guys' fault because it's usually the guy who either initiates it, and can get away with it much more easily if it results in pregnancy.

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [Stray Kitty], I would just ask for you to rephrase your comment slightly. This is directed toward the generalization of men.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: attacking?? attacking who?? sorry...this is just a subject to wich i feel strongly about...then again, i feel strongly about many, so thats not saying much. what i mean, is that...if she has sex...for what reason?? why were contraceptions not used?? (assuming if she did they would have worked...) and if she was raped...well, then i can understand...but, only if she was really like scared and phycologically uncoherent, or really just not thinking well enough to go and get the 48hour pill...

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: i thought it was a generalization...to wich i would like to challange...i can think of several women to whome are much more sexually oriented and active...and well, i guess if they didnt look for guys that woudlnt have a problem with doing there girlfriends all the time...woudl be sexually pressuring...and not all guys are dogs...

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: Just that the government is made up of mostly males (Iraqi women are better represented in government that American women) thinks that they have the right to say "the woman doesn't matter, the unborn baby (size of a period . like that one) matters" Also if a woman is raised in a family where the father abuses the mother (verbally, emotionally, phisically) then the type of man she's most likely to end up with is a man like her father. Also if she sees that as a little girl than she is going to think that that's how women should be treated and she will have a harder time saying "no". The media is also to blame, they (MTV, that stuff) portray women as objects and solely for sex.

2005-06-23 [Roc]: To [Fizban] The comment, "That's retarded." [Direction of discussion point]: I raise this quesiton before, but I shall raise it again. How is contraception really all that different from abortion: preventing versus ending? Also, how is taking the Morning-After pill any different from abortion, as it is doing virtually the same thing?

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: and on that note...if a girl is afraid of some guy that would get her pregnant with the chance and then leave her...well, maybe she should wait for a while before having sex, yah know...get to know the guy before doing any of that stuff...if she knows what the guy is like, then she could trust him if that situation came up...a problem i believe with society today...well atleast what i have seen of american society, is that people go out with other people they dont know all the time...if you dont know the person, why run the risk of having sex and getting pregnant??...

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: It's one mistake she made on ONE night in her life. Most women probably do take the pill, but what if she's not able to, for whatever reason. People make mistakes. It happens. She should not have to go through nine months of humiliation just because of something that happened on one night (which may or may not be her fault).

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: I think the pill just prevents chances of there being a pregnancy. Abortion is after you're pregnant. I think

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: i'm a girl and i will not even go into how much i hate how guys are always triggered as assholes.....the girl wants to have sex too both of them are doing it, it's both their faults....however if she were raped...which also makes me mad about how a girl can't protect herself....then i understand how the guy is stronger and has complete control over the situation and then proves to be a "dog"

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: i have had the question asked before, and i believe that the difference is, i mean to say i am pretty sure...is that for sperm to reach the egg in a women it takes about 3 days for it to travel up the vagina and throught the fallopian tubes up to where the egg is...once there it then enters the egg...but the 48 hour pill is designed to stop the 2 from joining in the first place, the zygote will never be born/created..., the same thing with condoms or otherwise,...its better to stop something from becoming alive, then to simple destroy it after its already alive...

2005-06-23 [Roc]: [Point of information]: "The pill" is the pill women take on a regular basis to prevent pregnancy. The Morning-After pill, as I understand it, kills the egg.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: if thats how it stops the process from beggining...hmmms...the egg is much different from the zygote...but...i dunno....is that right?? that wont do anything without the sperm and really really is part of the womens body...so i dont think its that wrong...although it doesnt sound great...but its better than an abortion...

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Well, let me shift the topic of conversation here. What do you suggest as an alternative? Illegalize abortions? If you did that, there would be so many abortions performed by amateurs in back alleys and basements everywhere. Women might die along with the fetuses. Doctors can already refuse to provide abortions if they oppose them.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: thats true...there really isnt a solution when you say it like that...i have a solution,...but its a tad bit arogant and well, rather impossible...so i wont even bring it up..., dont forget, they woudl go to mexico and canada as well to get them...

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Yeah, but let me hear your solution, if you don't mind, please.

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: Or research herbs on the internet. And you know all those products that say warn against pregnant woman using them, I bet a good number of those would end a pregnancy.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: yea they would...oy vey...my solution is for people to simply not have so much sex, and not be so careless...the only abortions i will ever be able to feel, is well okay...not horribly wrong, are the ones that are started by rape...or ones that would kill the mother if they were to occour...if your some person who doesnt be careful and use contraceptions (or do the smarter method of simpley being abstinent) then when you get pregnant i feel its your fault...that and whoever you were with...

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: my goodness ...you are determined..you could really hurt yourself with all these herbs and such

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: YEah. I however do not plan to have sex untill I'm way older.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: so if you are incapable to provide for the child...then give it up for abortion...you gave it life, its to late to take it back...the least you can do is let it live, if not with you (when i say you, i mean whoever the mother that had a child she didnt want, or couldnt take care of...sorry, i just realized i was saying you alot)--then with someone else...it may turn out to be well, less then the greatest life, but that deosnt mean its not better than no life at all...

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Well, the government can't make that kind of a social policy, although some good would probably come out of it.

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: Yes, I am adopted. My birth parents were older and both were divorced and had children from previous marriages. They did not want a child to grow up in that type of homelife. My real parents (The ones who raised me) couldn't have a child. Therefor they adopted both me and my brother (who's not biologically related to me)

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: how old are you now if i may ask??...but, irrelevently, weather or not she's determined there would be many pregnant unwed teenage mothers who would be desperate and willing...sadly enough anyway...i wouldnt be surprised to see the number of people that have made themselves fall down the stairs or somethign to try to cause themself to have a stillborn baby...not unless the number was very low anyway...

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: you birth parents where divorced and had you while they were divorced??? welll...is that where you got your name from??...well, how do you think you turned out?? by the way you speak of your 'real' parents it sounds like they love you^_^

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: I'm 14 and I don't plan to have sex untill I'm married or in a very stable and lasting relationship.

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: yippee^_^

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Okay, is this still an abortion topic or what?

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: lols...yes, it will be till 7/4/05 lols...so say whatever....

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: so what are you guys talkin bout now?

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: the futilitiy in talking about changing that wich cannot be changed,...of course who here really had thoughts about changing the law really has another thing comming to them...but i just love ranting (as is my title) so thats why i am here...that and learning^_^

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: lols was that banner just put up??

2005-06-23 [Roc]: What about common goals?

2005-06-23 [Gypsi]: I don't think making abortions illegal would do any good (it would do more harm, IMHO, because you would get women trying to do abortions themselves), so that's out of the question. And if you think about it, in a way, we need to have abortions, to a certain extent at least. Look at the world now: it's already way overpopulated. Just think of what it would be like if there were no abortions? We're already at what, over 6 billion people? And I don't have any clue how many abortions are performed per year, but I'm sure it's fairly large. In terms of saving lives, lowering the number of abortions is a good idea, but in terms of overpopulation, it's a bad idea. I understand that...

2005-06-23 [Gypsi]: ... people want to do the right thing by saving babies/fetuses, but if they don't know what they're missing out on, are they really missing life? I mean, I can't remember anything at all before I was 3 years old. Do you really think someone is going to remember something before they're born? That probably sounds a little harsh, but it's not meant to... (sorry, I know I've strayed from the current question)

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: i love the cute little cup of coffee banner lol ...is that what you were talking about?

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: yea but even if you can't remeber anything before that time...doesn't mean anything...it's not even giving that person a chance...and where do we come in on saying who deserves to die and not?

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: you are correct about the overpopulation.....which is so absurd...there are so many children born without families and many stay without them for a very long time, there's no reason why people cannot adopt if they want kids...unless they are too poor, which in that case...why are they trying to have a baby they can't support? 

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: becasue there not trying, there (whoevers) not thinking, being stupid...or attempting to use there kids to get money, i know of a person who knows a person(lols) that does that...the more kids she has the more money she gets from the govt, its horrible, she doesnt care about them, she just keeps getting pregnant and gettting more money becuase of it...

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: people should be sterilized then?

2005-06-23 [Axeman08]: Well, as far as deciding who lives and dies, we do that all the time, especially being in America and our selective intervention in worldly affairs. However, I don't think abortion should really be thought of as a means of population control. Perhaps abstinence or contraceptives could fulfill that role more humanely.

2005-06-23 [Morfeaohtarawen]: there have been people who've been punished by not being able to have children by law. Abstanance is the best way to avoid pregnancy and STDs

2005-06-23 [Fizban]: very much so...

2005-06-23 [skizheart]: well...we all know that...but i'm mean come on...with the exception of a few...who doesn't wanna have sex?....i don't think that it's right to just put a stop on having kids like China, you should be able to have your own baby if you want, but that's what's wrong with today...we are becoming so bad with sex...and it's because these kids have no guidence in this area from parents

2005-06-23 [Gypsi]: Abortion being used as a form of population control is wrong, I will admit that. Contraceptives and abstinance would be a much better idea, but some people just don't bother or don't care about it. I do not believe people should be sterilized: Abosutely Not. Say someone (like myself perhaps) didn't ever want to have kids got sterilized. What if someday, after the person was sterilized, they wanted to have kids? Sure, they could adopt, but some people like to use adoption as a last resort, so to speak. Forcing sterilization is an infringement of rights, to put it lightly.

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: I agree with [Gypsi] about sterilization. That comes dangerously close to what Hitler did and it was even acceptable in America for awhile.

2005-06-23 [Roc]: As common goals have now been hammered out, two means of control have been mentioned: sterilization and contraceptives. How do these methods differ from abortion?

2005-06-23 [Stray Kitty]: Sterilization prevents people from having children, ever. Contraceptives prevent children as long as you take them.

2005-06-24 [Blaze the Nameless]: Then if they don't want childern than get sterlization done! If your just going to sleep around with no comment it's better than nothing!!!!!!

2005-06-24 [Stray Kitty]: But what if you change your mind?

2005-06-24 [Blaze the Nameless]: Adopt.

2005-06-24 [Stray Kitty]: Anyways I think that it is still posible to be sterilized but people don't like the idea.

2005-06-24 [Blaze the Nameless]: How come?

2005-06-24 [Stray Kitty]: I think they like the idea of being capable of having a child.

2005-06-24 [Blaze the Nameless]: Some do and some don't.

2005-06-24 [Gypsi]: Even though I don't want kids, I don't want to get sterilized. Personally, even though I don't want one, I really like the idea of being capable of having one. Why? I don't know. Pride or something similar, perhaps.

2005-06-24 [Morfeaohtarawen]: women's last thing over men? :)

2005-06-25 [Gypsi]: Heh, maybe :)

2005-06-26 [Expensive Fidelity]: My point on Abortion: I think it's a woman's right to choose. Only under the correct circumstances however is it the complete and right thing to do. But I do feel that it is a woman's body, therefore it is a woman's choice. that's my stuff, and I'm stickin' to it/

2005-06-26 [Gypsi]: Hallelujah.

2005-06-26 [Expensive Fidelity]: You mean I'm not alone? I"m not going to get bashed! WHOO!!

2005-06-26 [Gypsi]: Heh, you are not alone. And as far as I know, [Roc] does not allow outright "bashing".

2005-06-26 [Expensive Fidelity]: Whoo!

2005-06-26 [Roc]: Condemning of sides is acceptable, to a point. However, bashing persons is unnacceptable.

2005-06-26 [Roc]: Moving the debate along, I would like to ask at what point each person believes life begins.

2005-06-26 [Pedito]: mine? I would like to know if the option of abortion can be giving to a woman if she was forced against her right to have a child and if it would be opk to give a woman an abortion if you know she is going to beable to support it? But thats only to say if adoption isn't available. Some areas in the U.S and other countries it isn't.

2005-06-26 [Koralita]: i totally agree with [Expensive Fidelity] i totally think that the mot(her should choose! And they schould make it legal (or is it alreadey legal?) cuz there are always going to be women who want an abortion... Just by making it illegal, it won't stop! They'll find other, more dangerous ways, wich could easily cost the life of the mother...

2005-06-26 [Expensive Fidelity]: Well, I can tell a few stories of illegal abortions. My great grandmother for one. It wasn't legal when she was pregnant, but for some reason, she wanted an abortion. So her's went down in a dirty back alley. She was ok thankfully. And my mom went to school with a gal who poured Coca-Cola up into her uterus because she was told it would work. The baby came out with one arm, the other cut off at the elbow, one ear and horridly disfigured. Women who want abortions will have illegal ones done that can really endanger themselves.

2005-06-27 [Gypsi]: What point does life begin? I believe it truly begins at birth, even though a fetus is technically alive.

2005-06-27 [Blaze the Nameless]: Well it's still not fiar to kill it.

2005-06-27 [Gypsi]: Maybe, maybe not. I don't think anyone can truly judge whether or not its fair to kill anything that's alive, but it happens anyway.

2005-06-27 [Blaze the Nameless]: It's still not fair in my eyes.

2005-06-27 [Roc]: [Blaze the Nameless], I can understand these sentiments you have. As most people here are pro-choice, I am going to ask you and [Gypsi] to give a comprehensive (using both logos and pathos in an articulate fashion) to sum up your arguments.

2005-06-27 [Expensive Fidelity]: [Blaze the Nameless] I completely understand your point. But do you know they do with aborted fetus'? They use them for stem-cell research. Yep. So even if the fetus doesn't blossom into a child, it can still mean a great deal in the world. /I/ believe that the entity is more human when it reaches the fetus stage. For me, embryotic means a giant blob of moldable goo. But that's just moi. also... When I was born, I was a legal California abortion for another week! Yes, I was only 24 weeks old when I popped out of my mother and flew across the room like a football! (seriously) My mom had people coming to her asking if they could put me on anitabortion posters. My mom refused. Know why?

2005-06-27 [Expensive Fidelity]: Because my mom is pro-choice. I think abortion is wrong as well. In some cases, yes, it's murder. And frankly, I've heard the process of abortion... it's hell. But there are times when abortion can be the only option. If you're 10 and you're raped and come up pregnant, what the hell are you going to do? But EH! I'll say once again, that's just moi.

2005-06-27 [Koralita]: I agree... I'm not pro-abortion at all, i'm pro-adoption ! but I simply say that i can understand why women would do it...

2005-06-27 [Fizban]: i understand that, who here believes in souls?? when that zygote is first formed, theres a soul out there waiting for it...tied to it...created for it...when its aborted, what happens to its soul??...i dunno...this argument only works for those with similar beliefs, but i mean...oy. what right does anyone have to take that away...i understand and wouldnt have a big prob with abortion under special circumstances, but some 25 year old capable women that gets pregnant shouldn't just get an abortion cause she feels like it...adoption allows you to leave the child with its life, as well as abandon your responsibility to it. the idea that somoene should give up a baby cause they dont want to...

2005-06-27 [Fizban]: ...look bad is disgusting to me, i mean, its the truth deal with it, if you go and get yourself knocked up cause you cant keep out of bed, what right do you have to kill a baby to cover your own tracks. paying for your own mistakes is what happens in life. Especially in instances where to do that, you kill someone. i dunno. In situations like these i can do nothing but hope she (the mother he attempts the abortion for selfish pourposes) just gets screwed up, and starts internally bleeding intill she dies. or at least has some wierd i dunno scar tissue problem that causes her to be incapable to have children. I think thats just for those so selfish as to kill someone. this may sound...

2005-06-27 [Fizban]: ...a bit arrogant and self Righteous i suppose, and i undestand that everyone has sins, but most people dont need to worry about murder as being one of them. In such an instance, we dont call it murder, we simpley call it an abortion so that people dont have to feel bad. (peopel being those that selfishly go throught with such procedures) i dunno...its just, how can one simply toss away a child to come.

2005-06-27 [Roc]: [Stepping aside as moderator]: I do not believe in souls. Personally, I believe religion was the worst thing to ever infect human kind.

2005-06-27 [Fizban]: infect...i believe that it can be the worst thing in the hands of the stupid and ignorant...and that its the most important thing to those who arent to stupid to handle it. What i mean is that, only the stupid would ever fight for religoun or force others to convert to there religoun or base a society on religoun soley for the point of control. But i think that without beliefs, or anything for people to have hope in, or to abate the fear of death...this world woudl be much of a worse place.

2005-06-27 [Roc]: Interesting...Okay: How does religion play into your beliefs about this subject?

2005-06-27 [Fizban]: simply that the idea that everyone has there own soul (this excludes all religouns that include reincarnation, as well as transcendental beliefs, because they have different contrasts on the subject)) because if you have a soul then you die, poof the physical vessal for the soul is gone, its now dead and thus moves on to the next plane of existence whatever that may be. Your not just cutting off a limb here...its a real thing, soul spirit body, all in all. The soul doesnt get anything at all, if in an abortion, its not like because it was never 'born' it will never form a soul, or that soul will never get to go and find a body, its out of the only body it ever had the chance to have.

2005-06-27 [Koralita]: for me, my religion doesn't really play into my opinion...

2005-06-27 [Expensive Fidelity]: Mine either. Then again, I'm athiest/agnostic. So it has no effect on me. However if you're referring with the soul attatchment as reincarnation even, from what I've heard, the soul awaits it's perfect time. And if that is taken away, they will just have to wait longer. That is MY opinion. And for a zygote to have a soul to me is very funny. Because A zygote/embryo to me is, as I said, a ball of goo. I feel it has no REAL identity until it is a fetus. That's when /I/ believe the whole life process starts. There are, I'm sure, viable and resonable excuses to why a lot of women have abortions. but I'm not one to say that, really. You would have to ask a woman in the process of an abortion.

2005-06-27 [Expensive Fidelity]: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&amp;va=abortion&amp;x=24&y=11 <-- there is the defination of abortion. I'm not proving anything wrong or tryint to or anything... I'm just putting it here just incase... ya know